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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 07:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
After so many discussions to ensure that the democratic process we have is seen as fair and should not be changed as a result of allowing people to vote freely for whichever candidate they prefer, we now see a shift in direction in Goon tactics, in a direct attempt to influence electorate representation.
Should this mean that all the arguments about voting blocs being a valid method of obtaining fair representaion be suddenly overturned?
(Discussion material taken from the Official Raiden thread where an officer of the Goons is suggesting that voting choices should be changed)
Grumpy Owly wrote:Andski wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Andski wrote:
"why vote for elise when he's backed by three alliances now?"
great job dudes!
Why do Goons feel the need to dictate how people should vote? why do nameless forum alts feel the need to dictate how people should vote? I dont think they should, but if you can site someone who does other than personal support for a candidate I'd equally see it as an attempt to discredit voter choice. I mean people are calling for voters rights and to go to the ballot box in a fair manner. Such that the representation should be afforded by this process. And each time someone throws out a thread about our diplomatic process and changing it, the argument is to select a candidate using the voting process. Now I see Goons feel sufficiently arrogant to judge other people's voting choices as invalid. So on the same token should we now go back to these representation arguments and re-discover opinions about any power bloc voting? I don't think you'd like to somehow. So why the double standard? Andski wrote:two alliances publicly state support for a candidate
other voters decide that said candidate doesn't need their votes because of the two alliances backing said candidate
this is not hard No it's not hard at all. You simply want to influence voter choice. Presumably as your equally hoping to establish the Mittani's call for an unparralled victory to ensure his chairmanship. So why can't alliances equally tactically vote for an alternative candidate? See, still a double standard. Not sure wether it's fair to build your big pile of hubris in this thread however, perhaps we should start a new thread about it in the CSM forum?
As much as I'm reluctant to suggest it as I would like to see our democratic process continue to its conclusion, does this mean we should now open the book again on all those representation discussions accordingly, I seriously hope not, and hope its a case of allowing democracy to take its course.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 08:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Andski wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:an officer of the Goons and it all went downhill from there - I'm not a director or "officer" or whatever
Ah very well, despite your comments in the EvE Uni channel about being a recruitment representative. No matter I shall change the discrepancy for accuracy as requested.
(Please dont see this as a personal attack Andski, not intended, but I think it's fair to discuss the potential shift in opinion on the subject. As such i want to make a discussion on ensuring democratic values and not personal opinion)
If you are clarifying this is a personal stance and not relevant as a Goon initiative then I think there is likley little concern about it other than personal views. If so can you comment to that effect?
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 08:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Erm, kind of asking you to clarify the concerns on the subject due to the comments you raised. I thought that was obvious from the fact I posed it as a question.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 09:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Andski wrote:I said that Raiden and NCdot publicly announcing their support of Elise for CSM would just backfire when the typical Jita Park lurkers refuse to vote for any "aligned" candidates, and votes that would otherwise go to him would end up going to hopeless candidates or, ugh, Xenuria or D3.
I don't see why I need to clarify that. This isn't "electorate manipulation," it's a fact. Most unaligned voters refuse to vote for bloc candidates.
Feel free to bring any further allegations my way under your main. And I don't mean your "Venus Rinah" or "Pelador Rova" characters. Certainly not Shazam whatever.
Thank you for explaning your stance.
So to round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed.
Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to vote freely for the candidate they prefer?
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 09:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Andski wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to vote freely for the candidate they prefer? You are aware that that is the case, right? Nobody is forced to vote for anyone.
Thank you, discussion clarified from my perspective.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 12:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:To round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed:
Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to freely express their opinions for candidates as they prefer?
Freedom of expression is fundamental to a democratic process.
This doesn't retract from the hypocrasy potentially identified that in many discussions we have had about the CSM electorate system. The winning opinion seems to be to ensure full entitlement to vote freely. And as such the subject of representation is as a result based on the ballot box. This was as an objection to the influences of power bloc voting and as such is very relevant to the topic of discussion that caused concern as to why I thought a double standard was being exercised as a result.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 13:19:00 -
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I'll leave you to continue your discussion on what democracy means to you as you like based on your opinions. My initial concerns regarding certain comments have been satiated as a result of asking some questions.
I personally dont want to get heavily embroiled in debating political theory for the CSM process. Firstly because moderators have asked us not to do so, and secondly I'm really not interested in that level of mental ************ about the philosophy of what democracy really means. I'd rather try and enjoy my time in EvE.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 16:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:
As much as I'm reluctant to suggest it as I would like to see our democratic process continue to its conclusion, does this mean we should now open the book again on all those representation discussions accordingly,
No, it doesnt. People are arguing about who to vote for. That's democracy. They're allowed to. Whats your problem?
You missed a very relevant bit:
Grumpy Owly wrote:... I seriously hope not, and hope its a case of allowing democracy to take its course.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 16:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Allow me to rephrase ....
No, it doesnt. People are arguing about who to vote for. That's democracy. They're allowed to. So why are you reviving the topic of screwing with the voting system which we both think is a ~dumb idea~?
read the thread.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 17:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:does this mean we should now open the book again on all those representation discussions Since half of those "representation discussions" were about skewing the voting system so that ~hi sec players~ got ~hi-sec candidates~ and not ~evil goons~ on the CSM then No - we shouldn't open the book again. Goons aren't "manipulating the electorate" any more than I am by shiptoasting in bad threads. If somebody thinks that the Mysterious Illuminati of goonswarm leadership, the secret leaders of PL, or the high command of CVA can somehow force members of those respective player groups to vote for candidate A, then I cant help them. Maybe you should answer Malcanis' points too.
You are kind of missing the point. As since the question was about how people would like to see other large alliances exercise their votes then it equally represents a biased understanding of trying to influence the democratic process. As since my entire argument is based on the fact that I dont agree in enforced representation outside of the effects of the ballot box. I have stated this in the thread. As such it was intended as an ironic gesture to ressurect those threads as a result, sorry if that escaped you.
I have answered Mals points in that I don't want to discuss democratic political theory (especially when in regards to the CSM) and that he is entitled to formulate opinions and freely express them as he likes. As such I hope I can be afforded the same curtesy. If he has a particular view that someone is in error as a result of freedom of expression he his entitled to point this out from his point of view. Wether such a thing as a "wrong" candidate exists in a democracy is an interesting question as its seems contradictory, but obviously there are likley certain principals if only from a legalislative or contistutional stance as to who can stand as a candidate.
As such I will re-itterate my view that I'm not trying to persuade a certain vote, if anything the whole point of the thread is to ask for people to respect the democratic process we have in allowing the "ballot box" to decide how people vote and not being "directed".
(And I best include the caveat of allowing campaigning and debate to influence opnions before people come back with a childish repost to that effect)
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.26 20:42:00 -
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Andski wrote:The irony of Grumpy Owly accusing others of manipulating the ~electorate~ while having a "stop CSM apathy" blog trying to do exactly what he is outlining does not escape me.
And I will show you the "manipulation" in missrepresenting a persons views as in the first part of the blog it states that I have no intention of telling people how to vote.
I'm entitled to my personal political views, I'm entitled to encourage voting and enthuse people to be informed about a process. And I have stated personal reasons why. What I have not done that you are trying to take out of context is deliberatley prescribe where those votes should go. Which is what this topic is about.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 07:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Interesting, 2 long winded campaign posts by Goons that have completley missed the point of the thread.
Please go on, turn this topic into a soap box if you like, but all your demonstrating is a misscomprehension to what is being talked about.
Any candidate can in fact legitimatley campaign how they wish (given CCPs guidance) in order to encourage people to vote for them. Be a pretty redundant and boring process without debate and discussion on the issues in trying to determine those things. So thankyou for defending those principles of democracy, it's encouraging to see.
The point laid out by this topic is to do with dictatting how people should exercise their vote and in this case is NOT atrributable to the Goon alliance anyhow, it was focussed towards other alliances. And as such was to do with trying to influence how others should exercise their voting.
And since we have had a number of debates about freedom to vote for who we choose, which is a common message echoed from the Goon community it was therefore a hypocritical view to take. And as such could be viewed as a double standard which could undermine the validity of that previous argument's platform for how the electorate system is supposed to work as a result.
The question that was posed that I found interesting is why is it so much of a potential problem for the Goons to all of a sudden attempt to discredit this freedom of voting as a result with their own interpretation which contradicts their previous position. However, the question was asked and confirmed not to be the case so, isn't an issue as I understand it? Unless of course your now saying you wish to retract those views and suggest that democratic freedoms should be curtailed.
At this stage I'll put it down to being drunk, as was remarked by one, or not understanding the points made, as seems the obvious interpretation based on comments.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 07:09:00 -
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ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Devilish Ledoux wrote:If I understand the OP's 'logic' correctly, Good luck with that. I think we've already established that the OP is a conspiracy nut with an anti Mittens agenda hidden behind very long and incomprehensible sentences.
Actually no. You'll find that people who have been following this years election will know my stance on the Mittani's campaign, and is in no way hidden.
But this thread isnt or wasn't specifically about candidate preference. It's about democratic values, and to reitterate, those concerned have allready heavily aired in favour of allowing freedom in voting in their arguments. So their values were already presented on the subject, which again is the whole point about the thread you seem to missunderstanding.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 10:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Attempt at a shorter revised form about the thread to help with explanation:
Lets keep voting free and refrain from "dictating" how we should apply voter choice.
Obviously as part of election campaigning you are allowed if not encouraged to "inform" about candidacy positions to influence said voter choice.
We talked a lot about voting practices, models and free voting in a number of threads which supported the above idea in principal. And is consistent with CCP guidelines as set out in the CSM white paper.
As such to maintain the integrity of those views can we please respect democratic choices.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 10:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
If bored to your pants by this discussion I can certainly sympathise.
As a suggestion to provide some levity and new experiences, the following can be used as an analogy of my interpretation of trying to rationalise sometimes on EvE forums:
"Smearing mushy peas under both armpits and running headlong into a brick wall whilst shouting your a waffle toaster"
(Warning helmets not provided)
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 16:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Honestly, all political :stuff: is Electorate manipulation. It's not just the Goons who do it. It's all of the CSM7 candidates. It's republicans. It's democrats. Every move a politician makes whether its for an internet spaceship discussion-board chair or for a real-world governmental doo-hickey is trying to manipulate people to vote for him, work for him, etc etc.
This isn't a ~bad~ thing, it's just how politics work, how social dynamics works.
Trying to present it in a negative light and attribute it to the Goons is kind of silly.
Except that we had forumlated some kind of common understanding of how this democratic process is supposed to work. It was/is kind of a common understanding we had all agreed on.
Trying to bring in campigning influences is largley irrelevant to the point I have been trying to make here. And yet it consistently seems to be thrown in due to a missunderstanding to the issue being made, despite my points to suggest that it isnt an issue.
Goons and others alike all essentially shouting down calls previously in other threads to change the process because the importance of free voting rights and democratic freedom to choose your prefered candidate.
This "agreed" understanding i think we share hasnt been corrupted (except for the potential hic-up that was identified and clarified above as not a problem).
So the important question then:
Do Goons still stand behind the freedom to exercise voting choice? As objections to these principles make me question this.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 16:20:00 -
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Malcanis wrote:The Mittani wrote:guys guys guys, people voting in an election is a manipulation
(assuming you don't like them, and there's more of them than you) Asking people to vote for someone you like is manipulation. Voting in an election is rigging.Try and keep up.
Suggest re-reading my points then, as I have gone out of my way to make a distinction between valid campaigning influences and dissrespecting our democratic process.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 21:40:00 -
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Alavaria Fera wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:(trying to avoid political theory debate) We've been over this... ThisIsntMyMain wrote:So you opt out of replying to Malcanis by saying you "don't want to discuss democratic political theory" - in a thread that you started, with the purpose of debating how you think a group of people are manipulating a political process i.e. discussing democratic political theory.
Yes we have as can be seen from a much earlier point that I made prior to all the "baiting".
Grumpy Owly wrote:I personally dont want to get heavily embroiled in debating political theory for the CSM process. Firstly because moderators have asked us not to do so, and secondly I'm really not interested in that level of mental ************ about the philosophy of what democracy really means. I'd rather try and enjoy my time in EvE
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 22:11:00 -
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The Mittani wrote:This guy is all over Jita Park ever since he was outed as an altposter writing about 'Punktani', it's absolutely adorable.
Never stop posting, Grumpy Owly!
I honestly wasn't aware that propoganda label had stuck to anything.
But then I'm more interested in ideas and looking at a candidates solid manifesto that shows an actual associated support to something than just popularity contests as a foundation for campaigning. 
BTW, have you picked out a nice brown overcoat for your new "caretaker" role yet?
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.27 22:46:00 -
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Groperson wrote:Hey, how is the most people in eve history voting for the person they want as CSM chairman electoral manipulation?
Since its not and you have missinterpreted the whole thread.
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Grumpy Owly
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Posted - 2012.02.28 05:36:00 -
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Andski wrote:Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:All this shrill goonie shitposting ITT:
It smacks of desperation to me.
What are you guys so afraid of, all of a sudden? naturally if we had nothing to fear we'd simply disregard the hilariously bad thread you don't "get" goons
Sounds like an infectious disease, perhaps call it "Goonettes".
Symptons include, but not restricted to, infering that democratic principles are "nothingness or hilariously bad".
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Posted - 2012.02.29 09:29:00 -
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Ladie Harlot wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Sounds like an infectious disease, perhaps call it "Goonettes". Symptons include, but not restricted to, infering that democratic principles are "nothingness or hilariously bad". Goonettes are female goons you sexist pig.
I do apologise. And as such your absolutley right I should not discriminate from male Goons for this issue, that would be just wrong. 
In the spirit of the point of the thread then lets make it a democratic process, hate to see me imposing something on somebody.
1) Lil Beesettes syndrome.
2) Buzzettes syndrome
3) Stingettes syndrome.
4) Honeydewettes syndrome.
5) Apisettes syndrome.
Any more candidates?
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